Scotland reach the midpoint of the tournament with a tricky visit to a confident England side. Twickenham has never been a comfortable hunting ground but can Scotland maintain their recent run of good results and retain the Calcutta Cup? Where it all go wrong/right?
Give us your thoughts on the game.
Please put your post-game discussion points on this post – bearing in mind our Comment Policy.
41 responses
How many penalties and missed conversions. We threw the game away. We just don’t learn. So disappointed in the same old mistakes. What’s it going to take to turn this around?
well that was annoying – one that got away against an England side who defended well but offered little. 3 conversions missed (one very easy) which ultimately was the difference. We just werent clinical enough
Add in some dubious refereeing decisions and an English try that, to my eyes, didn’t appear to be grounded.
It’s all very frustrating.
We have all the technology and it was pretty clear it was not down. But was this a case of the referee’s asking the wrong question of the Touch Judge ? I cannot watch it again. That is two years in a row , Ireland last year when we get stuffed with obvious injustice. Finn has too much responsibility for his spontaneous manner on the pitch.
I thought we played well. Some great rugby. But…..Finn was off with the kicking, and we need a second option that can step up. Tbh he has a lot on his shoulders as Captain and some great play making. A great shift from everyone with few exceptions. Disappointing result, but that’s test rugby, it can hang on small things….e.g. final neck roll should have been another penalty….etc..
It’s all very well playing great rugby but that means little when a team with great potential constantly finishes third or below in the 6N. England were awful and yet we couldnt beat them.
All I’d like on here is to be able to like or dislike a comment on this out of date blog. Also to be able to delete.
You can’t afford to miss your kicks at international level. Simple.
I would like it if I could remove those remarks about ‘out of date blog’. Ran by volunteers and costs YOU nothing. Other than that, your comments are pretty good. You can not miss your kicks.
English try wasn’t. All the replays show it was held up. In real time the referee’s hand was skiting the sky too soon. This was the guy’s first 6N match and he howled it. Why was a jejeune given a match of this significance?
Russell’s star is fading fast. A third 6N mediocre performance on the slow bounce that cost us 6 winning points today. The poor boy must just be exhausted by his own profile. Prendergast obvious Lions #1 now.
Nice to see the joyfully resurgent Welsh though.
I thought Finn was pretty good today, with the obvious exception of his goal kicking.
Every kicker has an off day every now and then, which is one of the reasons why it’s important to have a reliable back up goal kicker at the ready. George Horne would have filled that requirement nicely.
We were much better than against Ireland but we’re going to need to at least match today’s levels against France and (on today’s evidence) Wales.
I’m sick to death of the Russell-bashing (not singling you out ER!!! :-)).
Finn ran England ragged in that 1st half. His first missed kick was poor for sure but the next was from the touchline and the last was also wide out with enormous pressure on (I thought DVDM could have tried to get closer to the sticks, but I wouldn’t blame him either). The truth is that those kicks should not have made the blindest bit of difference to the outcome.
(As co-captain it would have been up to Finn himself to make the call on changing the kicker but he is the type of guy to back himself regardless. Personally, I would have made the change after the first kick because missing an easy one puts all kinds of doubts in your mind which I know this all too well from the golf course!!! Both Jordan and Kinghorn regularly kick for their clubs with reasonable success, although BK has a bit of history with last minute kicks with the game on the line. I agree with those that say Finn should not be burdened with captaincy and those that think co-captaincy is a cop out which actually dilutes our leadership rather than enhances it.)
Just like blaming the referee (who did have a few shocking moments), blaming missed kicks misses the point. We didn’t take anything like enough points from the opportunities that Finn (largely) created for us.
The major issue we have for every single Tier 1 match we play is that our forwards are simply nowhere near good enough when we have more than a couple of phases in the opposition 22. One dimensional, ponderous, lacking penetration, allowing defences to reorganise and push us back or turn us over; time and time and time and… …time again. Is there a worse team amongst the Tier 1 nations in this regard? I would argue we are miles behind even the current Wales team in this area.
This is Townsend’s failing. It has been a massive problem throughout his tenure and he either can’t see it or he can’t or won’t fix it. Yet it is the major reason why we keep losing games we should have or could have won.
Edinburgh is exactly the same; you never feel that they will score when they start carrying close to the goal line. But it can’t be simply down to player quality because you don’t see that from Glasgow these days. The difference is the coaching approach.
This puts so much pressure on Finn because opponents know we offer no threat without the ball going through the midfield axis. To be honest, it is a miracle he delivers to the level he has done at all. It also means that when we come up against the really good defences such as SA or Ireland which so effectively shut down Finn’s options, we appear completely rudderless because we can’t make decent territory with ball in hand any other way.
I try not to be a hypocrite. I supported Townsend’s appointment at the time because I felt that Vern, grand job that he did, had reached his ceiling with the team. I think the same is now true of Townsend (and has been for some time IMO).
I accept that the contractual situation makes it difficult to make the change right now but we are presumably dealing with professionals here, so there is no reason why Scottish Rugby cannot decide (and announce) they will be replacing Townsend with Smith at the end of his contract next year. Time for a change, nothing personal, thanks for your service, no hard feelings, good luck for the future etc etc.
Garry,
I have got to disagree with you that Vern had reached his ceiling. He got a win against Ireland and got us facing in the right direction. He was not given long enough Townsend has probably been too long. He has got us no further than Vern in the 6 Nations and less successful in the RWC.
Townsend has spent years trying out new players and we now have options. That has made us strongeR. That is something .However some calls are a bit Crazy.
Ewan Ashman was in the way when he came on. Maybe he just had a bad day. We know Jonny Matthews is capable yet he is not even in the squad.
Johnny Gray ? Really . Pushed back beyond the gain line every run.
Yesterday we scored 3 tries , they scored one. If DVDM was not MOM , it would have been Richie or Kinghorn, basically the Scots stood out on the day , very few Englishmen stood out.
We should have kicked our conversions.
We just seemed to sabotage ourselves. Daft mistakes in the red zone.
We were facing in the right direction when we conceded 61 points? Not sold on that direction personally
Should that be Dublin Rock? You’re comparing a 10 behind a dominant pack in the first two games with one who was a bit hit and miss in the Italy game (but led us to a 5 try to 1 win), and was always on the back foot for the whole 20 minutes or so he was playing in the Ireland game.
Prendergast looked decidedly dodgy when the Welsh were pressing and the forwards not so dominant.
I just don’t get it with the attacks on Russell. Some people expect him to win every game for us and crucify him when he doesn’t. Yes he missed the kicks but his play from hand was excellent and he outplayed his opposite by a mile.
Perhaps two hia removals in just over a month, and his playing schedule, have a bit to do with the kicking misses, as well as as a ref forcing the last mark metres closer to the touch line than it should have been.
Is it time to drop Russell to the bench and give the starting spot to another?
I don’t know why Dempsey & Jordan were taken off so early in the second half, I thought they were playing well.
Just to clear up the comment that Jordan came off. He didn’t. Hew Jones came off . Townsend advised that he was feeling a tightening of his Achilles tendon.
Unlike the three previous Calcutta Cups I’d been lucky enough to have tickets for, I watched this one in an Essex pub completely outnumbered by England supporters. Virtually all of whom sportingly said to me at the end that they could hardly believe they’d managed to win the Test, having been outplayed for much of the game.
We are sadly masters of losing the should’ve/could’ve won internationals (thinking in particular of the last two times we’ve played the All Blacks). It’s the cross we supporters have to bear.
Onwards to Wales at home next week, where I’m hoping we can pick up our next win before the daunting trip to Paris the following week.
We’re still a very good side, mind. Much better than the sides of the noughties and first half of the 2010s.
Huw Jones surely nailed on for this year’s starting Lions’ 13 jersey?
As long as he keeps getting picked I would agree. We know he is amazing but you know what the tombola is like.
Is there a reason why this thread was bumped so far down so quickly after the game? Can I politely ask that 6N post match analysis articles stay at the top for a couple of days after the game to allow posters to share their thoughts while fresh in the mind? Thank you
We’ve got three “above the fold” slots then the rest of the articles are always found further down the page. It happens in this case that Finlay’s U20s article was scheduled to appear to also allow it time to be read while relevant and that did the pushing in this case. I’ve marked this discussion to stick in on of the “Featured” slots until more articles come along.
Appreciate the timely response and explanation Rory. Thanks as always to you and the other writers for keeping the content flowing.
The police should have been called onto the pitch to charge that English pack with a double murder…Killing time and momentum by means of collective loitering.Executed in plain sight,the ref witnessed nothing, or turned a blind eye.The crime for me tho?..we let them get away with it.That kind of nievity does my nut in and is deserving of 2 short planks aswell as caps.
We have smart chips to help detect HIA. Looking forward to when they invent one to put inside the ball to confirm grounding/non groundings.
Looks like the ref raised his arm hastily as the cheers of the home crowd came in and it was radio silence from the TMO. We should have won in spite of that but the lack of scrutiny is still frustrating.
Absolutely right. Why are Schoeman and co-captain Darge not screaming after holding up the ball?
Read Freeman’s ungentlemanly admission (from Robert Kitson’s Guardian report): “Freeman was adjudged to have touched the ball down beneath a heap of Scottish bodies but smiled broadly and chose his words carefully about his try afterwards. ‘The referee awarded it – therefore I grounded it,’ said Freeman. ‘He awarded it so that’s the end of it really. I’m not going to say anything different. You take the points and stop asking questions. He must have seen it on the ground.’
Don’t want to go all football over this, but there is no sore loserism in complaining about actual losses caused by inept referees. Townsend rightly incensed by the penalty given for a perfectly safe ruck clearout that Smith then converted – yet nothing forceful said.
Referees have one job: apply the written rules. The puerile fool in charge on Saturday gifted the opposition 10 points. That’s the end of it really.
“Ungentlemanly” is putting it mildly. Alas, winning at all costs seems to be the norm nowadays, and to hell with the rules.
I’m old enough to remember a venerable Andy Ripley confirming to an uncertain referee that the opposing 10’s drop goal attempt had in fact cleared the crossbar, an action that could have seen his team eliminated from whatever Cup it was they were participating in. His honesty made a big impression on my younger self.
Rugby was, of course, an amateur sport back then and perhaps it was the better for it.
I’m just exasperated, we are never going to win anything are we? The better team by a country mile, England defended very well but it was desperate stuff, they were completely toothless in attack. Yet again we somehow fail to put a team away. I don’t like blaming the kicker, something was clearly up with him though, he’s not a Greig Laidlaw or Chris Patterson-esq metronome but he is a decent 8 – 9/10 kicker, you would expect him to make at the very worst one of those kicks, and probably two of them. It isn’t his fault though, thought he had a pretty decent game otherwise and the game should have been dead and buried, bonus point in the bag by sometime after halftime. Error after error, stupid penalties that just took our foot off the throats of England. England won the same way we used to win Calcutta cup games every now and again, by defending and kicking our penalties, think I remember them being in our 22 twice.
On the plus side, other than the result I thought it was a pretty enjoyable game to watch, mainly due to us being so much better than England. Jamie Ritchie had a cracker and so did Duhan. Ugo Monye can do one saying Duhan should have tried to go under the posts. You know fine well what would happen if he tried that, a dropped ball, knock on, no try, game over, you absolutely try and make it easier for the kicker if it isn’t a risk to do so but your job is to score the try.
That was a golden opportunity to put England right back in their boxes after their lucky win against a French team that stereotypically didn’t show up that day. I fear for us now, Wales were on for a slaughtering but they’ve got the bounce of a new coach, and we won’t beat France in Paris, they’ve already had their poor game this year, they won’t have another. So there we go, Ireland get their “threepeat”, which can get right in the ******g sea as well by the way.
I have never been a Toonie out crier, I think he’s a good coach and we can play some devastatingly good rugby, that has never been a problem, its inconsistency and fouling the bed that’s the problem, I don’t know how you coach that. But, has he hit his ceiling, do we need someone else with some new impetus and ideas to push us further?
Yes you can say Toonie out. 8 years is way too long. Should have gone after the last World Cup.
Final word on this appalling referee. Welsh centre now pundit Jamie Roberts correctly notices that the referee made Russell move the tee 2.5m closer to the touchline during his shot-clock set-up. All footage shows van der Merwe dotted down exactly on the 5m line. No guarantee Russell would have converted, but this is utterly disgraceful behaviour. Novice 6N referee should be banned.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/…/jamie-roberts-spots…
It’s utterly atrocious stuff. That on top of him gifting England ten points for a non grounded try and non penalty for a safe ruck clear out.
Every year we are on the wrong end of such crucial decisions and the players and coaches can’t say anything post match as they get accused of sour grapes or criticising the officials. The Sam Skinner try against France which should’ve won the game. Fine margins decide games. I know people can say we should be winning in spite of these events but it feels like we suffer much more than England, France and Ireland do.
Never mind sour grapes, they’d be up against a disciplinary hearing probably.
throw in the Itoje “turnover” which lead to England going down the park and winning a penalty they stuck over.
It is possible to argue about execution of Scotland all day, should have bee better, but the referee was massively, beyond the point of his station culpable in an 11 point swing (wrongly placed kick, that penalty, try grounding) in the game, staggering at this level of sport.
It is international rugby, it is an all or nothing game for a crack at the title , it is in front of a vibrant crowd, it is a game of small margins, it is an annual fixture.
Do not tell me a refereeing error or two does not stick in your mind.
We may not always agree entirely with a ref on a close call, but as a player , you need to have confidence in the referee.
And I will tell you something else, if it is not completely wiped from the memory of tehse players, it will come bck nect week.
The welsh will already be sending texts to our guys reminding them about it.
Nigel Owens whom I have to say I respect , has waded in on this now. The moving of the conversion was wrong and the Itoje Steal was illegal as he was not supoorting his own bodyweight. What is the point !
The team went an hour without troubling the scoreboard and lost the game. All of Gregor’s protestations of great performances in defeat are SO tired now. I think he has done an amazing job but no one can possibly argue that a change is not required in the hope that a new voice can take our talented but flaky squad to the top half of the table.
Anyone remember the last time we actually played well against Ireland, let alone beat them?
Yes, the last 6 Nations.
Vern Cotter Team beat Ireland at Murrayfield 27 -22 in February 2017. Ok so some dont like to read this , but it is a fact.
Ref making Finn move the kick location- That must have been annoying . That can put you off a routine, particulalry in such a key moment and with a clock ticking. What is more, it would appear the initial spot was the right spot. You could not make it up.
A final moan about the grounded levitating ball, and refereeing. I believe that Nic Berry did almost the same thing to us in the world cup game against Ireland. No way in earth he could have seen any grounding but was adamant, and waved away protestations.
As far as I can remember, this was also preceded by a number of advantages to Ireland and wonder if this fact has an impact on their decisions, conscious or otherwise.
Goodness, we really are developing into a nation of whingers with the fixation on the referee. Whilst we point to some “questionable” calls, references to things that went in our favour are conspicuous by their absence. Jones kicked Slade in the buildup to our first try. Jamie George was illegally held in the ruck prior to Duhan’s try. And, whilst not a refereeing decision, we really did dodge a certain try due to Lawrence’s terrible offload execution.
Only an England fan would notice such phatom offences. How bad do we need to play to give you the cup.