Podcast: Episode 143 – Schrödinger’s Rub

Cammy, John and Iain pick apart Scotland’s loss to Wales to try and find some positives. We give our reactions to Zander Fagerson’s four match ban and call for changes in the disciplinary process. Elsewhere there’s some Legally Mandated Lions Chat, Hands In The Ruck and a catch up on the latest news.

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Born a Souter but brought up just south of the Border in Berwick where he played for Berwick RFC as a kid any any position where cover was needed.
Follow Cammy on twitter @CammyBlack

26 comments on “Podcast: Episode 143 – Schrödinger’s Rub

  1. Referendum on

    Good podcast chaps and yes there has been alot of gnashing of teeth (including myself) this week both for the poor Scotland parts and what went against the team. This was probably the most dominant loss we’ve ever been involved in…so hard to take…

    I had a wee look back in my memory and we are pretty good at having close painful losses both through own ineptitude and bad calls or whatever. That is ultimately cause as yet we’re not good enough to not have these factors or referee, own inflicted wounds, foul play etc affect results mainly.

    I’d say we were as or perhaps more dominant than Eng game but far less disciplined. Would the narrative been the same had Eng collected from the drop goal and ran under the posts? Probably!!!

    Result sways opinion.. this year had become the best chance thus far to really make a mark…it does feel a little different this time though…we’ve won before but nothing like these games in systematic dominance in many areas….we do have a chance to cement this Welsh like grit and become serial winners with this group….we have more, way more than our past hopes…in these players.

  2. Referendum on

    In terms of points made on pod….Cammy said early on that The Red card isn’t why we lost then later on said it was. Personally it wasn’t the whole factor (we are a different animal now that a red doesn’t mean we get spanked by 50 points) but was one of many major factors…Wales were briefly on top in the time of red card but we wouldn’t have lost without the red…

    The other issue that could be unpacked more is that you clearly highlighted that we had discipline issues quite rightly and didn’t adapt to ref …so by that we deserved to lose…Wales had 5 more pens in that match than us. 16-11. Clearly more streetwise but by that standard they definitely didn’t deserve to win at all…they were far more ill disciplined than us (nearly 50% more) so why didn’t it feel that way throughout and why didn’t they come under more pressure from ref regarding potential yellow?

    This i hope will finally be looked back upon as a huge step forward in the years to come that we finally learned the hard lessons that it takes to be serial winners…time will tell!!!

    • Ian on

      Talking of red cards last weekend, there was a “Liam Williams” incident in the 35th minute where he led with his elbow into the head of James Lang. I would have say it deserved a “red”, especially given the way the Fagerson incident went twenty minutes later. James Lang got up, played on – the exact opposite of milking it.

      Was this is correct thing to do? Would an Irish or Welsh player have got straight up and played on? Do we want Scottish players to start playing with the street smarts that would have got such an incident looked at? Or do we want them to keep playing “fairly and honestly”? I honestly don’t know.

      • Neil on

        You treat the team playing against you the way they are to you.

        I.e. if we know they are a bunch of cheating milking c^nts, they we must do the same to them.

      • James on

        Exactly the point I was going to make after listening to the red card part of the pod.

        Wyn Jones milked the head knock but didn’t even require an HIA. Alun Wyn Jones called the ref back to check for foul play as the ref had let it go (partly why I think he didn’t take the TMOs mitigating circumstances as he felt he had to react having initially missed it).

        He Lang gone down and clutched his head or Hogg asked the ref to check with the TMO for foul play we could/should have been playing 14 men for the 2nd half.

        Should players milk penalties and cards, no. But if others teams are going to do it and you’re losing on the fine margins then you have to start playing like the teams that are winning.

  3. WestCountryTartanArmy on

    Well said. Upon much reflection we have to recognise we are still on the cusp of something. We’re all massively disappointed after the weekend but if we hold our nerve and stick with it these players could still give us a championship and even a grand slam in the next 2,3,4 years.

    • Bass rock on

      I do think we have a good squad, we are strong in most positions and unlike previous years , we have not been compromised with numerous injury’s. We may find other surprise results this 6N. What have I learned , that we had a lot further to travel , but we are in a better place to learn and implement the learning.

  4. Neil on

    As long as we beat Italy and either France or Ireland with a narrow loss to the other, then i think we can call this six nations a success.

    • FF on

      I think three wins is par really. We won three games in 2017, 2018 and 2020.

      Doing so again would be a huge missed opportunity after winning in Twickenham.

      For me, the reason why the Wales game stung so much is because this team, lead by Hogg and Russell only has a few more seasons left to make the breakthrough. We’ve been dragged from the doldrums up to mid-table respectability but unless we can replace these world class talents we only have 3-4 seasons at best with them at the top of their game to win a title. We had a shot this year because if our start and we were easily good enough to beat Wales but we shut ourselves in the foot. Championship winning teams don’t blow 14pt leads (well except England).

      Sad to say but it might not happen and that would be gutting.

      • RuggersB on

        I disagree.. that we only have opportunity for success during the window where Russell and Hogg are at their peak.
        Players come and go..
        Both players, on their day, are great…both have also made their share of costly mistakes.
        They’ll be missed sure…but irreplaceable?..I dont think so.
        We have quite alot of exciting talent coming through and alot depends on our coaching team abilities too.
        Its just as likely our best team is ahead of us as it is behind us.

      • FF on

        Yeah, we’ll see. I think in the medium term there is a horizon for this group of players and who knows about the next group? Maybe they’ll be better, maybe not.

        I do think those two players in particular are rare talents. The last truly world class Scottish fly half was probably John Rutherford and the last world class fullback was Gavin Hastings. We don’t turn them up every 5 years or so.

        We could still emerge a better team even if we don’t replace Russell and Hogg with equivalent talent, but we do have a chance of winning a championship with the current squad, we all yearn for a title and I just think it’ll be a sad opportunity missed if this group can’t achieve that.

      • RuggersB on

        I’m not sure its really a missed opportunity ..I guess is what Im getting at.
        It happens all the time in team sport…where a team has 1 or 2 elite level players …but are deficient in some other positions.
        Its really whether we will one day consistently put out a side that, if well coached, has both depth, balance and consistency of play. That’s when I think we can achieve something great. Having a couple of elite players in a 15/23man team doesn’t equal an elite team.
        Its arguably the strongest squad we’ve had in the pro era….but all the other top tier teams aren’t sitting on their mid pads either..they all want the same trophies up for grabs…it’ll take alot of ducks in a row for us to win something major…elite players or not.

  5. Saint4805 on

    Doris is out of the rest of the 6N with concussion apparently. I think he’s a great young player and wish him a speedy recovery. From a selfish perspective the upside is that both he and O’Mahony will miss the trip to Murrayfield which definitely helps to offset the loss of Fagerson.

    • Saint4805 on

      This is a huge boost and about time we got some good fortune. Let’s hope he gave plenty of his teammates a hug before being tested.

      • SlowWalk90 on

        28-0 seems to be the precedent, but seeing as this is Scotland that we’re talking about I suspect that the ruling is just to give the points to the home side.

        I definitely don’t want this game to be called off, and I would prefer as few French players to be ruled out as possible. If we beat them again I wouldn’t want it to be considered a diminished victory (by others around the British Isles) again.

      • Referendum on

        The six nations rules were not changed to make that automatic…the game will be rescheduled and played or a squad of different players…

    • Not science on

      Sounds like he might still make it if only in isolation for 7 days – they have delayed changing their internal rules to 10.

      • Saint4805 on

        Villiere and Haouas have also tested positive and look set to miss out next weekend. The rest of the squad will be tested on Sunday apparently. Even if some do test negative before next weekend’s game the infected players won’t be able to train with the rest of the squad during the self isolation period. Unwanted disruption either way.

        I’m sure Haouas will be gutted not to get his reunion with Jamie Ritchie.

  6. FF on

    Interesting take on the Fagerson incident from Ronan O’Gara –

    “….. I see the Fagerson red and I am thinking ‘what is going on?’
    The Peter O’Mahony example was an open and shut case; the Fagerson one is a portent of things to come. It seemed the only one who wanted the red card for the Scottish prop was the referee Matthew Carley. The upshot of it all is Fagerson’s punishment is greater than O’Mahony’s. Someone tell me that is not because he disputed the accuracy of Carley’s decision?

    The inconsistency drives us all inside the game bananas. Everyone agrees with the ambition to make the game safer but Zander Fagerson doesn’t play another minute in the championship because he approached a ruck with the sole intention of a legitimate clean out.

    We are setting ourselves up here for a fall. The language of rugby’s laws is king now. ‘Intent’ is no longer part of the vocabulary. Logic need not apply, so leave your common sense at the door. We are moving into VAR territory.”

    • Saint4805 on

      I’m still in disbelief at the outcome of the hearing. How the panel could punish him for not agreeing it was a red card when the TMO was also not convinced it was a red is beyond me. I’d love to see video footage of the hearing to see how this shower operates. The laughable thing is that O’Mahony’s ban was reduced because (a) he accepted the red card and (b) because of his “previous good record”. You couldn’t make it up.

  7. Bulldog on

    I have heard very few people, of any nation, speak up in support of Carley’s decision. I do not believe it is in the interest of the game to leave this one as is. It is a poor precedent to set. Sadly it is an SRU player which has been let down and it is the SRU challenging the governing body’s sentence.

    I am fairly proud of the side , they stuck at it till the final whistle. However , they need to show common sense and kick when a penalty is awarded in front of the posts. This is international rugby, take the points.

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