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Autumn Tests Roundup

Jonny Gray on the charge - pic © Al Ross
Jonny Gray on the charge - pic © Al Ross

Rory Baldwin: So, do we really have a chance in the 2015 6 Nations? Since I felt all smug following our 3 tests, Wales have beaten the Boks and England put Australia away…

Barry John: Er, Wales clawed past the Boks.

Cameron Black: Those 4th week wins paper over some cracks. Wales were mediocre against a poor Boks and England’s defence was suspect against Australia.

BJ: Wales and England seem to be a bit of a mess at the minute selection-wise. Although if England stick with Ford over Farrell and pick a better centre pairing…

Alan Kerr: I’d argue that England and Wales can be ‘got’ at – both sides can be forced into errors. I can think of players on both those sides that I would be targeting, as mentally there are cracks (not saying Scotland don’t have a few of our own!). The correct mental approach and top three is achievable. Ireland look a cut above…very consistent. The scrum scares me but we have enough to worry other sides.

BJ: There’s every chance we can do well. However I’d temper that with: do we really know which France will turn up?

CB: The exciting thing is that every team has the potential to be a bit shit at any point, so it really depends which England, Wales, France, Ireland or Italy perform, each weekend. Also depends whether we can maintain such high tempo rugby over five matches.

BJ: I think other than Ireland, we have the most settled squad at the moment. And thankfully Glasgow have some strength in depth with some of the exiles playing well for their clubs. Gloucester has done Laidlaw the power of good.

CB: We’ve been lucky with injuries in the Autumn but we’re only a couple of knocks away from crisis in some positions.

I think we’ll finish top 3 though.

Gav Harper: agree about injuries, but there’s no reason we can’t beat Wales and Italy at home, and if France continue to go the way they have been I’d fancy our chances in Paris.

CB: We’ll only beat Wales if we cut out the unforced errors. That’s what did for the Boks. We’re also conceding far to many penalties at the breakdown as teams with reliable kickers will punish us. More work needs to be done getting the referee on side early in the game.

Ruairidh Campbell: The last time we played Wales at (BT) Murrayfield the only reason we lost was because we were far too indisciplined. Despite what happened this year v Wales, we feel that we can beat them, just like every other 6 Nations team.

RB: Despite evidence to the contrary!

RC: Yes! If the team can reduce the number of soft penalties conceded and can keep their composure for the last 10 mins then there is no reason why we can’t win these tight matches.

CB: It’s been interesting reading comments about Scotland in the English press. Much has been made about the impact of Bennett but I think most of us would agree he had a quiet start and never got a chance to get going before getting injured.
Not much has been said about Russell with one paper questioning whether he was good enough. That could go in Scotland’s favour and we might still have the element of surprise on our side.

Jamie Lyall: Do we really have a chance? Absolutely. But we must give this group of players time to build on an encouraging November. The repeated errors and indiscipline during the first half of the Tonga match would have been punished more severely by any Six Nations opponent.

GH: I really felt we were lucky not to have 2+ in the bin vs Tonga, because we gave away so many penalties for not rolling away. A little more streetwise and we will give teams like Wales a good run for their money.

CB: Hard to roll away when you’re the size of Richie Gray. I genuinely think he needs to stop bleaching his hair as he stands out too much.

RB: A worry for me is the level of physicality Wales and England bring, even on their bad days. We need to be able to get round that…

Brodie Smithers: on current form Ireland are the Six Nations favourites. Wales will remain solid with their core group of players. England are one dimensional but powerful. France used their Autumn to blood some foreign legionnaires and Italy showed some promise. I’d settle for third but stranger things have happened. I worry about our squad depth though.

RB: So then, which areas of the team worry you? It’s a long season next year with the World Rugby Rugby World Cup…

CB: Tighthead.

BJ: The entire front row. And to a certain extent the back row. Getting the balance of these right seems the key.

Using domestic English rugby as an example I watch Wasps a lot and when Hughes and Johnson play a lot is expected from them, but they’ll have quieter games if only one is playing or indeed if Haskell isn’t there. As for the front row union I saw a 2nd/3rd line Wasps pack take Moray Low apart the other week. Still not sure who the new laws suit and there’s a lot of guys coming back from injury.

I’ve always thought we get pinged a lot at scrum time as the perception is our scrum is weaker therefore we must be the problem – whether true or not.

CB: Are Welsh, Murray, Cross and Fagerson our only tighthead options? Anyone name another?

BS: I’ve only seen Fagerson once against the Scarlets and he gave away three scrum penalties in a row and was subbed after 20 minutes. He is only 18 – it might take a few years. What about Nel and Shiels?

CB: Shiells is a loosehead I think. Pleased he’s at Edinburgh. He’s a real talented prop.

RC: He hasn’t played much yet this season but now he has moved up to Edinburgh so he might have a better chance to prove himself.

JL: Front-row, fly-half and midfield. In each case, should first picks be injured, we are left with ‘do a job’ players. Think Reid, Weir, Lamont, Taylor… not bad players by any means, but not the sort to keep the opposition up at night.

BS: I have concerns about centre too. Our answer to Bennett’s injury was Sean Lamont. Admittedly he played well, but we need a fit and on form Matt Scott back soon. Depth at full back could be a problem too.

AK: It’s been said but props worry me, South Africa for example will destroy us. Depth is, and always will be, an issue – this is where the management need to be clever by having a game plan the ‘dirt trackers’ can play too… I thought we saw some of that thinking in the Autumn.

RB: And which areas give you heart? Are there any positions you feel better about after the Autumn?

BJ: Definitely feel better about the 9/10/12 axis. Or at least I did until Weir’s headless chicken act in the last moments of the Dragons game!

CB: I feel happier about Russell as at 10 than any other 10 Scotland have had for some time. Even with Jackson out injured it feels like there are options. Was a shame Heathcote didn’t get a run out though.

AK: The 9/10 axis actually looks like two people who speak to each other…wonders never cease!

RC: I agree about the half backs, but I’m also a lot happier about hooker thanks to the lineout success – even if the scrum is still a bit of an issue.

BS: Second row is fascinating. With the Gray brothers performing so well as a unit, where do we go with Grant Gilchrist? Add to that Swinson, Hamilton, Kellock, Ryder etc and competition is fierce. It’s heartening to see Kennedy, Hildalgo-Clyne and Steele (London Irish) getting regular games at nine for their clubs too. This will heap pressure on Laidlaw, Cusiter and Pyrgos. Number eight is currently Ashe’s but Beattie, Denton and Strauss will make that a”‘hot” position too.

CB: I agree with Brodie about options at 8, especially with Strauss being a possible option in future. I wasn’t convinced at all by Wilson during the 6 Nations last year so it’s nice to have a few more options.

GH: Half-backs and hooker – we’ve also proved we have some depth in second row, back row and at loosehead.

AK: To me the big difference was off the pitch – it seemed very clear that players understood the game plan. Other than 10 stupid minutes versus Argentina and a bit of a wobble in the first half against Tonga, game management was very very good. There has always been talent in Scotland side but never the ability to release it.

There is still an awful lot to do but definite signs that the current set up is going in the right direction.

RB: It’s list time at the moment. Should any of our players make a Northern Hemisphere or World XV based on performances this autumn? If so, who?

CB: No. Not because they’re not good enough, but because others are better. Johnny Gray might make a NH bench along with Tommy Seymour.

BJ: Jonny Gray seems to have made a few of the teams. Although one of those was by [Jeremy] Guscott who also had a front row with Dickinson and Ford.

CB: That says more about Guscott than the merits of Ford and Dickinson. Scotland struggled in the scrum, so can’t see any getting near a team.

RC: For a world XV, no one just yet. For a NH team, Jonny Gray could just sneak in given his recent performances. Other players who had decent games such as Russell and Cowan now need to get the experience needed so they can be a danger come the World Cup.

AK: Not sure anyone would start, but (puts tin hat on) based on performance in the three AI games Ford was pretty much as good a hooker as any. 97% accuracy in the lineout and a significant number of of carries in the loose suggest he was doing a lot right. The scrum remains an issue, some of which he can work on and elsewhere he is a hostage to fortune based on the pack around him. Jonny Gray was outstanding for us, but not sure he’d squeeze in.

RB: Guscott picked him!

AK: I think I’m off to self harm if I’m on the same line of thought as Guscott! Elsewhere there were good moments and performances but not the level of consistency.

JL: Based solely on November, Jonny Gray probably merits a spot, but broadly speaking, he doesn’t match up to Retallick, Matfield, Etzebeth and co just yet. Same for Seymour. As for the others mentioned, it’s been an encouraging month, but no more than that. Early days…

BS: Is it controversial but I thought Laidlaw was probably the second best NH nine (behind Webb) over the course of the AI’s.

RC: Although Laidlaw definitely had his best few test matches in a long time, I don’t think he was quite 2nd best – I would probably have Conor Murray and Cobus Reinach ahead of him based on Autumn Test results

BS: Laidlaw kicked better than both and was also captain of a successful test side. Murray was impressive though.

RC: Reinach was also one of SA’s top players, considering his inexperience. Do agree though that Laidlaw was certainly up there with his performances

RB: Leaving aside what the outside world thinks, who was your player of the series?

BJ: Sean Lamont. Watching his workload when he came on during the ABs match typified the commitment of the team under Cotter. Closely followed by Ford and Laidlaw mainly because their performances this season are at least two steps above what they were doing last. Not sure where Ford’s has come from but Laidlaw’s move to Gloucester seems to have done him the world of good.

RC: Jonny Gray. We had seen with Glasgow that at 20 years old he was a very talented player. There were questions about whether he would even start with Gilchrist named as captain, but the way in which the Gray brothers worked together means that it will be tough for Gilchrist to come back into the starting XV. Although Ford must be commended for his excellent lineout throwing, it was Jonny calling the lineouts, something he did very well. A future Scotland captain?

CB: I would probably split it between Gray Jnr, Ford, Laidlaw and Russell. Laidlaw was superb and there’s a real spring in his step. Also don’t think Russell has been given enough credit for the difference he has made in mixing up the direction and style of play.

RB: We no longer need a substitution to do that!

BS: Agree with all the above but perhaps an underrated performer was Tommy Seymour who finished well and was a menace in all three games. Dunbar was also solid too.

RB: I actually thought Dunbar was too quiet going forward until the last half, against Tonga. A rock in defence though.

AK: Ford, Laidlaw and J.Gray have all been mentioned and all were oustanding and showed huge improvement/development. One name not mentioned and who I think is becoming increasingly important is Blair Cowan who has helped stabilise the back three and been an important link between forwards and backs. Strikes me as the sort of player who suits international rugby, very calm. Despite initial concerns, I think he’s been a big find.

CB: That’s a fair assessment of Cowan. It’s taken him a while to get used to the pace of international rugby which is why it’s taken time for people to warm to him. He’s been very much a slow burn rather than exploding onto the scene which we’re used to with our back rows (although most struggle to regain early form – see Denton, Rennie and Beattie).
I think his only weakness is he sometimes stands too upright when he’s tackled and so he’s been driven backwards a few times but that’s easily fixed.

GH: Jonny Gray – was probably unlikely to start with Gilcho named skipper but took his chance well and has probably played himself into a Six Nations starting place.

6 Responses

  1. The consensus is that we have 3 winnable games: France, Wales, Italy. They also happen to be our first three games up, so if we don’t start the 6N strongly the honeymoon will be over for Cotter very quickly and Wales will suddenly be a must win match.

    Win those three games and that is going to set up some Calcutta Cup clash at Twickenham.

  2. Some interesting points gents and broadly in agreement.
    Is this one of those conversations completed on keyboards, or did you meet up to discuss?
    Not sure why you think Adam Ashe is nailed as the No 8. he had a solid set of internationals without being overly mentioned by the commentators. Accept his defensive work and getting around the paddock is good, but showed nothing add an attacking force.

  3. To be honest, I’m just releaved not to see the names Hugo Southwell (possibly the worst player ever to wear a Scotland jersey, though I do remember a player by the name of Johnstone in 1983 who was rubbuish and I didnt think much of Andy Irvine either), Mike Blair (over-rated small guy who was easily pushed arround the field and made loads of mistakes) or Scott Johnson (nice guy i’m sure but definately the worst coach of all time at international level) in the squad, though I believe the latter has some sort of highly paid but waste of space job in the SRU (I guess someone had to emplopy him and only the SRU are capable to wasting their money to that extent).
    Lets also hope that Lawson isnt in the team as he is another one of those utlilty guys (similar to Mike Blair- far too small and makes loads of errors)- probably an OK player at club level but mediocre whan it comes to playing in internationals. I think if Cotter just stick to the players he used in the Autumn international, we will perform well in the 6 nations. I would go as far to say that all of the games will be easily won or lost with only a margin of 5-10 points in it. It will really demend on how the individual squads perform on the day and we probably need a bit of luck on our side as well. Honestly, the difference between the grand slam and contesting Italy for the wooden spoon is hardly anything- the width of a shet of paper- if current form is anything to go by. I just hope we dont see another 51:3 scoreline or similar against us. I couold be wrong, but I dont think we will this year.

    1. Hugo Southwell retired after missing the world cup in 2011 through injury and his last game was in the 2011 6N against Wales. He retired from rugby in February 2014 after sustaining an injury – he was Wasps captain at the time.

      Mike Blair retired from test rugby in before the 2013 6N.

      Andy Irvine was one of the greatest fullbacks in Scottish and British Lions history.

    2. Rory Lawson also retired last season after failing to recover properly from a chronic wrist injury.

  4. So I wish all these guys a good retirement. In fact I knew they had already retired but the point i was trying to make is that we do not have players quite so poor in our squad now. The only possible exception is Jim Hamilton. A big guy who punches way below his weight. I would like to see him perform more like Martin Johnson and less like the honey monster, but I guess he is possibly the only weak link in the team based on the perfomances in the Autumn international. And he also player quite well against the USA so I guess he has some uses.

    Andy Irvine is an interesting one. He scored his fair share of tries but was responsible for leaking even more as he often seemed to play out of position- way too far up the field and rarerly at the full back position as the last line of defense. Thats why I never really rated him. The other players I mentioned really were not up to playing at international level yet somehow managed to wear the Scotland jersey. I dont blame them but I do blame the coaching staff for picking such poor players to represent our country. Its so good that Vern Cotter took over as coach as he definately wont invest in such mediocrity and the players know it.

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