EMC Tests Roundtable Discussion

So, the EMC Internationals 2012 are done – is there any light at the end of this particular tunnel for Scottish Rugby?

Alan Kerr: This tunnel has a never ending feel to it. The performance against New Zealand had moments, but the performances against both South Africa and Tonga were rotten. The game vs Tonga had all the signs of a team that had lost faith in the coach.
Rory Baldwin: Robinson himself looked like he didn’t have the answers, which for a man like him would have been extremely irritating having worked so hard.
Tom Macleod: I don’t think we can get much worse in terms of quality, morale and direction. The stats do not lie, bar the odd Southern Hemisphere scalp we have failed to consistently beat the teams near to us in world rankings when it actually matters in RWCs and Championships.
Brodie Smithers: The performances were better this year against New Zealand and South Africa than they have been in previous routs. The main difference seems to be the ability of the Southern Hemisphere teams to relentless force errors and capitalise on them. We’re nowhere near being that kind of pressure team. My biggest fear at the moment is the French, especially their scrum. Did you see what they did to the Aussies? Frightening.
TM: If we were truly a 5th-9th place side we would be regularly beating Argentina, Samoa, Tonga, Italy, even Wales. Scotland are now worse than those teams and deservedly so. On the plus side, I believe we ARE potentially a better team than our 12th place ranking suggests, but change needs to be widespread.
Alan Dymock (AD): What’s that song by Orange Juice? Rip it up and start again. Robinson made some changes to the SRU, a lot of them very good, but our system is still failing. The rugby wasn’t great and now morale has gone. We need to hire some entertainers to come in and cheer everybody up.
RB: I am sure there are some light entertainers going spare at the BBC.
Cameron Black (CB): There always seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel. The problem is we never move towards it. We’ve ended up in a semi-comatose state, occasionally spluttering into life. We scored tries against the best team in the world; we failed to cross the line against a team ranked below us even when they were down to 14 men. We dominated the second best team in the world for large parts of a game, but it was a game we left were chasing due to silly unforced errors. We’re constantly chasing our tails. In terms of players Matt Scott, Stuart Hogg and Ryan Grant were excellent. Tim Visser’s all round game still needs to improve. He’s a real attacking threat but can look a bit skittish in defence. With the exceptions of De Luca and Lamont the back line’s still fairly young which bodes well for 2015 when, barring injuries, they’ll be much more experienced.
TM: A team built around Grant, Gray, Pyrgos, and Hogg should be our aim for 2015. Sadly though I fear we will continue to be the worst home nation by some distance until we implement a stronger pathway programme for our young players. Until that happens, we will not see results on the pitch.

Will Ford and Barclay ever be good again? Who else may have played their way out of the new coaches’ thoughts?

TM: People always use the phrase ‘form is temporary, class is permanent’, but that is usually attributed to players who perform at world class level for the majority of the time, which unfortunately doesn’t apply to Ford and Barclay. Yes, we’ve had flashes of them playing fantastically, but never on a consistent basis. Both have been woefully off form for some time, especially Ford. His throwing at line-out time has been dire, but for so long now he hasn’t had anyone pushing him for that number 2 shirt. And, until the Tonga match, I don’t think a coach had ever dropped him. As for Barclay, I really thought he would step up after Rennie injured himself in the first game. It was his chance to get that 7 shirt back, but he was a shadow of his former self this series. They’ve been good servants, but they both need to get back to their clubs and start performing, and a coach needs to come in and say to them ‘guys, you will not be playing for Scotland any time soon if your form doesn’t improve’. I just feel that hasn’t been said to them, and a number of other players. They both need a rocket up the backside.
AK: It’s not just 2 players though – there’s a whole generation that have under performed. The issue is systemic – a culture of underachievement sits across the Scottish game. The issues facing Scottish rugby and football are the same – we are not short of talent but we short of character. Mr ‘Seterday’ Ford is just an example of a player with the talent but not the mental strength to excel at international level. I’d like to say now is the time to blood new players but not convinced these new players are actually there.
BS: Strokosch, Kellock, De Luca, Evans, Traynor and Scott Lawson were all underwhelming
RB: Strokosch had a great summer. Kellock is a fantastic leader in a team with no leadership but easily the third choice second row.
AD: The saddest fact is that we have to wait for Ford as there are no alternatives. Dougie Hall is not even the best hooker at Glasgow and Scott Lawson is too much of a liability in the heat of a test. However, with Barclay, we can afford to say, “take a wee break, pal. Enjoy married life a bit more. We’ve got this”. Then we kick in the back door, dragging Chris Fusaro over the threshold by one of his swollen lugs. It’s time to take a chance in the back row and Fusaro can link as well as Barclay can.
RB: Could we convert Fusaro to a hooker?
CB: All he needs to do is throw straight. No need to learn actual hooking.

I’m not sure about Max Evans now. We’ve been playing him out of position on the wing and when he was moved to his favoured position against Tonga he didn’t really excel. I’d rather see the likes of Ben Cairns and James King getting a chance at centre and we’ve better options on the wing .

AD: I’d just like to see King and Cairns fit and playing rugby. When you look at the injuries they’ve had you can’t help but think of James Caan in Misery.
RB: Agree on King, Edinburgh have a real pace and zip in the midfield when he’s playing.
CB: Fingers crossed for the 6 Nations then.
RB: Hogg may well end up in the centre as has been oft mooted, but then you need to find a full back who works as hard as him.
CB: Greig Tonks had a stormer against the Ospreys. It might be interesting to have Tonks and Hogg switching back and forward during a game, mixing it up a bit.
RB: There’s Maitland still to come too we hope. Visser, Hogg and Maitland would be some back three, on paper anyway. You could slot Brown or Tonks in too and move Hoggy into the centre and there is still plenty of threat. Maybe not so much defence.

SRBlog: What was the biggest mistake made by a coach or player over November? (Scotland or otherwise)

BS: Robshaw, Robshaw, Robshaw. Although none of the home nations have had a great Autumn. Wales are in pieces, England lack leadership, Ireland are soft and Scotland? Well, don’t get me started on Scotland.
TM: For us, the mistake by the players and coaches to try and out-muscle South Africa for 60 minutes when it was clear after 10 we were not getting through them. We could have won that game by just being a bit more ‘heads up’. Elsewhere, it’s hard to look beyond Leigh Halfpenny’s missed grounding of the ball against Samoa which gave them the match.
AD: For Scotland: Running at Etzebeth and Louw and Alberts. Rucking against Etzebeth and Louw and Alberts. Trying to tackle Etzebeth and Louw and Alberts. Also, against Tonga, chucking in the likes of Heathcote at a painfully tense period of the game, when it could have gone either way. Robinson finally tried to shake things up and renege on his conservatism, but there were actually too many changes against Tonga. Chris Robshaw had a shocker, though, didn’t he?! Sheesh.  Asking to take his decision back from the ref almost made me weep.

Is Pyrgos now the number one scrum half choice? Whither Greig Laidlaw now? Tom Heathcote? Discuss.

BS: Depends who gets the coaching gig. For me Rory Lawson is the pick of a mediocre bunch. We seem to have gone from riches to rags in this area. On the plus side Murray McConnell looks like a great prospect.
TM: Going forward and looking to the future, I think Pyrgos has to be first choice if his form for the Warriors continues – he gives us a bit of zip. I think now should be the time that certain Scotland players follow Andy Robinson and say goodbye to the International stage – Mike Blair being one of them.
AD: Blair no longer looks like he can handle the pace of the international game. Shame, but time and onrushing defenders wait for no man.
TM: Laidlaw for me has never been an international fly half. I don’t like the view that you cannot be a small guy and play at the highest level – but to be one of those players you have to have the magic and jinking that Shane Williams had, or Craig Gilroy has. Laidlaw does not, and offers little threat past the boot. He is a liability in defence and no opposition are going to worry about him taking it up to the line himself.
RB: I disagree that Laidlaw isn’t a threat, but his particular sphere of operations is broken play or sneaking through tiny gaps, which suits him at scrum half but at standoff the opposition have too much time to get ready for him.
AD: Laidlaw intrigues. He is a good nine, and will run round a ruck, even if there is a defender there, if he thinks it is on. Pyrgos needs a bigger gap, but is quicker across the turf. Both could be used, as Blair and Cusiter used to be. However, who do they supply? I would need to see more of Heathcote in the heat of an international against a more organised team. Weir still has not taken the step to the next level yet, and I worry that he may not have the confidence to do so for a wee while. Laidlaw is the brashest of our fly-halves.
CB: One of the problems we seem to have is being fixated on players holding down specific positions. Hopefully the new manager might be a bit more flexible. You’ve got to play the conditions. Greig might be a good choice at 10 in some games but not others. Same at scrum half. Pyrgos was impressive but others might have a different skill set that suits the style of play the manager wants.
RB: Hmm. I’d like to see more players shuffled less. I think we need to find GL a position and stick to it.
AK: The fact that we even have this level of discussion of who should play 9 and 10 etc says to me we are goosed in both positions. I’m sick and tired of fitting square pegs in round holes. To my mind the players suffer from being shuffled all over. Fine at club level where no-one is paid to turn up every week so the same guys won’t always be present, but surely at international level players should be in a primary position. Robinson’s greatest issue was indecisiveness: whoever the new coach is has to pick a player in a positions and keep him there.

Should Scotland stick to playing at Murrayfield, as a narrow pitch like Pittodrie does not seem to do us any favours?

AK: It shouldn’t make a difference but the Scottish team is so fragile I’m afraid the move to the smaller pitch is detrimental. Whilst it’s great to have a full house, that’ll not last if the team choke in the way they did against Tonga. It was a shameful performance.
TM: I like the idea of taking games across the country to expose communities and supporters to rugby more. A re-think is maybe needed on the stadiums we play at though. Pittodrie is not ideally suited. I’d like to see a match at Hampden – granted it’s not far from Edinburgh, but still. And a game in Inverness I’m sure would be welcomed.
RB: We’ve had the odd U20s game.
TM: Scotland need to re-engage with the Borders communities as well, that is our rugby heartland and it’s been ignored really by the national side. Let’s take a few A games, age group level matches etc to places like Melrose. And with a few temporary stands, maybe an international down there in the Borders would be a big success.
BS: We need to be able to adapt to whatever pitch size we play on. As Jim Telfer said “these are excuse that weak players use”.
CB: Agreed. There’s every chance we’ll find ourselves playing at a football stadium during the next World Cup on a similar size pitch and we’ll have to adapt our game plan accordingly.
AD: No point haein’ a wee road show if we can replicate the crowds from the All Blacks and Springbok games. The mission should be to fill out Murrayfield at all times, rather than heading to a much smaller venue. Murrayfield is home and Scotland will always play there. A wee bit more marketing elbow grease required, perhaps.

Mind you, I did used to love watching games in Perth, when Caledonia played there. McDiarmid always felt busy. Rose tinted glasses, maybe?

CB: I think it’s a good idea for the team to get out to the provinces. I’m not sure the Tonga match would have attracted the same numbers to Murrayfield. I agree with Tom about getting age-grade and A internationals played in different areas as well. You just have to look at the crowd that turned up to Netherdale for the match against England last year to see demand is there.
AD: Youth internationals and A games? Dens Park. The home of head tennis.
RB: What can you say after that?

Is there any point even thinking about the Lions?

AK: No.
RB: Before last weekend the pundit’s teams were positively Scot-heavy. It will all depend how the Six Nations goes. Gatland is unlikely to put much stock in how Glasgow go in the league, and both teams are all bout out of Europe.
TM: As you said Rory, any players who want to be on that plane have to step up during the Six Nations. On the plus side, Wales’ potentials too have fallen out of form this Autumn so it’s still all to play for. My only picks to tour at the moment would be Gray, Grant, and Visser.
AD: I am a firm believer that Lions talk should be banned before April. Just look at the pressure poor Richie Gray is under. Wrecking his body for club and country in a slavish endeavour to improve either, and they are both still in the dumps.
BS: I think Gray will go if fit, no matter what. Visser has a shout but for me the dark horse is Kelly Brown. If he can re-capture some of his pre-injury form he may just sneak in.
CB: The Lions squad isn’t going to be decided on the autumn tests but it’s given a couple of players an opportunity to get their names on Gatland’s long list.
RB: Conversely, this autumn has done some serious damage to any number of big names.
CB: It’s going to add another dimension to the Six Nations. If players can’t even use that as a motivational tool then we’re really screwed.

Question 8: Who would you have as the new Scotland coach?

RB: Wayne Smith for me. Talks sense, vaguely Scottish, success at all levels.
TM: Wayne Smith would be brilliant, but I can’t see him leaving a Super 15 winning Chiefs side. Scotland would be a step down for him, and smaller pay packet I imagine.

The easiest thing is promote Lineen but will that bring any serious change? I think we need an outsider to come in and bash a few egos, be his own man and tell the players exactly where they are right now, but set out where he wants them to be as time goes on. Nick Mallett could be that man, but I still have doubts about him. Out of realistic applicants and targets, no-one floats my boat too much.

If it was my dream choice? A triumvirate of Graham Henry, Wayne Smith and Jim Telfer! Odds on that?!

BS: Brian Redpath
AD: It’s that Dark Knight thing of getting the coach we deserve, rather than the coach we need.

Scott Johnson was not a cheap appointment, [rumours around £200k a year]. Robinson may have quit, but he will have done so in good faith and he was on a whopper of a five year deal. Murrayfield already has Lineen on the payroll with a nonsensical remit, and Johnson may be too pricey to punt.

Any talk of whingeing, fighting and fall outs is commonplace in a high pressure environment. No one told me Johnson had caused any squad melting barneys. He just gets under people’s skin.

If there is some cost-cutting duo of Lineen and Johnson it could be quirky and they may even be innovative, but it would be doomed to end quickly.

I just can’t see Scotland opening up the cheque book before the coaching system Robinson built is cleaned up first.

CB: The options go from the unobtainable to the unemployable. My worry is we get another Matt Williams who comes in and tells players they’re crap.
RB: They’ll be feeling pretty crap at the moment.
CB: We need someone who can come and instill some passion in the players and build on the fact we now seem capable of scoring tries. Ideally I’d like to see McGeechan back, maybe with a view to bringing the likes of Chalmers, Graham, Redpath and Tait in to boost their experience. Coaching any international side is probably 50% technical and 50% mental. I’m not suggesting a foreign coach would be bad for Scotland just that like any “outside” player they have to have a passion and understanding of what it means to represent your country. The manager’s job is to get that through to the players and get them fired up.
RB: Players seem to like Johnson, he just doesn’t do so well when he’s the top man. I can’t really see him co-existing with Smith or Lineen. Does Lineen really want the job? Maybe he is happy where he is. Arguably he could do more good there in terms of developing player base.
CB: If the players like Johnson, could a good cop/bad cop combo work?
AD: Who would be RobboCop? Lamont, because he’s so fragile they have to put him back together every three days? Strokosch because he has the same level of emotion?
CB: McGeechan is a coach close to retirement, Johnson is a coach living on the edge. Not sure who’d be Joe Pesci mind?
RB: I think you go for whoever is the most Weegie.
AK: For me Wayne Smith would be awesome but unlikely – I thing we should be approaching Todd Blackadder, plenty of experience in Super 15 and some knowledge on Scottish rugby. To me it’s depressing looking at the options because it’s the same old faces linked with the RFU job. If we had ambition we might move for Schmidt at Leinster… at least he has a record to sing about!

The last thing we need is another job for the boys.